SCN6, SCN5 and X-Sim vs SimTools

Pardon my lack of knowledge.

Will SimTools control SCN6?
Is wiring for SCN6 different than SCN5?

What is the difference between software SimTools and that on X-Sim? Did SirNoName write both?

I have read in one thread that SimTools runs at 20ms and "other" at 40ms. Is X-Sim the "other"?

I have read SCN6 "support" comes with "next" SimTools version. When was it released or when will it be released? The SCN5 Tutorial says "Keep in mind that currently (June 2014) the SCN6 Actuators are not supported by the SimTools software. It should be fixed in the near future."

Thanks.

FAQ: What's the difference between SimTools and X-Sim?

Thanks @RacingMat , as you use BOTH currently and spread your information across BOTH forums , YOU would know each set up well then.

Yobuddy, value1, eaorobbie and a few other helped write Simtools.
Martin - Sirnoname and a group wrote x-sim
Simtools uses raw data out of the game, meaning what it actually does.
X-sim uses an algorithm, meaning what they think the car in game should be doing.
Simtools is far more refined in motion than x-sim
Simtools is free with ALL features.
X-sim is not
Yes Simtools runs faster in plugins than x-sim
SCN 5 support is there and I think @nclabs can answer about SCN6 support.
The next version of Simtools is in development and will be released when they are ready.
Current version is excellent

Thanks...I think the SCN5 enough for my first 2DOF. Thinking I might want SCN5 for yaw-slide.
the tutorial on the SCN5 is excellent.

In fact, I used Xsim then I used Simtools and at the moment I no longer use any of them: I'm only using Gamedash because the Geko has it own manager.

ok then, so why are you still supporting people on x-sim then? I can read threads and you advise people......

I'm not really activ but from time to time I just advise people on simbuilding

Thank you. The new version of SimTools is on it's way, but you know how this things goes, a delay it's always around the corner, be patient folks.

Hi @stroutmail, While I don’t use SCN actuators, I have used both simtools and x-sim and here is my opinion.

First, while it is probably of little consequence to most people using today’s computers, in the “differences” link it states simtools uses less resources than x-sim. However, it fails to mention that simtools requires the .net framework as well as the simtools files therefore making it a larger program overall than x-sim. Of course, you may need the .net framework on your computer anyway if you are running other programs that require it.

On the motion itself, it is my finding that simtools is indeed more “raw” in its output and seems to be faster in response than x-sim. For a chair moving design, I think that this is probably a desirable trait since you are looking for fast and snappy types of movements in order to facilitate the best motion feedback with that type of design.

However, I find that on my moving platform design, it seems a little bit too much on the “raw” side and/or a little faster than I desire. The response from simtools seems almost immediate to the point it doesn’t appear natural to me; kind of like a car that doesn’t have any suspension on it whatsoever. And it also seems to be faster in the since that the motion of my platform doesn’t seem to have enough time to properly react to heaving. In other words, with x-sim, when I set the heave tuning to a low enough value so that I can feel good road bump vibrations, I still achieve a full response from my platform when going over inclines and declines too. With simtools, when I set my heave tuning to feel the same road bump vibrations I do from x-sim, I don’t get very much response at the other end in inclines and declines. If I set the heave tuning in simtools to an even lower value, I start getting a somewhat better response out of my platform for inclines and declines, but the road vibrations go way over the top for my liking. Doing that also adds quite a lot more stress to everything and my motors quickly start to overheat too. This is probably mostly due to the fact that I am heaving a total of 300lbs around.

So, it is my opinion also that simtools data is more “raw”. But since it is raw, I would have to say that it is less refined in motion, not more refined than x-sim imho. X-sim has several tools available also to further refine its motion if desired. However, I believe what @bsft meant by saying, “Simtools is far more refined in motion than x-sim” is that, on a chair moving design, simtools has a faster and snappier action to it than x-sim. Refinement of the motion can be a good as well as a bad thing I guess depending on your rigs design and the type of motion you personally prefer!

@BlazinH : Thanks for this detailed feedback!
I have updated the FAQ with .net framework size. Simtools is still the smaller

Hi @RacingMat, Again, the file sizes required by both programs are irrelevant for most of us these days. But the size of the .net framework 4 client profile varies depending on the machine type. On my windows 7 x64 it takes 39MB, but on my xp x86 machine, it states the .net 4 client profile takes up 182MB.

I needed .NET4 just for Asseto Corsa and Grid Autosport.
Thats even before I installed Simtools.
I think most games and or programs may require .NET framework regardless.

Sounds like you spend time on rally Sims where heave may be important. In most road racing heave is not an issue.

Fast response is...software that responds fast..like driving a go kart with no suspension is good... damping and springs to more simulate suspension is possible in the seat and rig design.

Is it not possible to adjust this speed with Sim Tools???

you can adjust the profile so its not so violent or more reactive to how you like it. You would work with the percentage of the force and the tuning centre number.
You cannot really slow the speed of the motion plugin, that would cause lag, as I used to beta test x-sim3 software.
Simtools is far better and simply more refined motion.

@stroutmail, I’m not sure what you mean by that statement. There are three g forces from racing titles with telemetry output for a reason; to simulate the g forces felt in three dimensions. If heave is not an issue, why even include its output then? I would say heave is the most active force of the three myself since it is the one that outputs road vibrations and other vertical forces. It sounds like you spend time racing on ice frozen lakes that are smooth as glass if you don’t think heave is important on a racing sim! And yes, to get vibrations in your sim from bumps in the road takes a fast response; both software do that. One just feels different than the other.

@bsft, I think you and I use a different definition for the meaning of “refined”. To me that means the motion is processed in an attempt to remove impurities making it feel more natural. By that definition, something that is raw is not refined since it has not been processed yet. I think your meaning of refined means harsher. To each there own I say.

Driving on a frozen lake might actually be an approximate description of racing at the limit on pavement except for gforces.
Duplicating the racing environment is certainly important but all engineering is about compromise.. if I had to choose between heave and traction loss I would choose traction loss. And I don't think simulating the 150 degree F heat in the cockpit I have experienced would be my choice. Many like Sim Vibe but I don't think it improves driver performance. To me simulation is about improving human performance...games are about an enjoyable experience. As you say to each his own.

The most important (imho) it is the difference in the lag ! i mean the time between the data come from the game and the output of the software (x-sim or simtool) . It would be very interesting to know the numbers.
I think Simtool is faster but i don't have any proof.

You are right...lag is bad and will actually cause vertigo or motion sickness. Whenever your brain gets conflicting signals it assumes you have eaten something causing hallucination and proceeds to make you sick..ultimately so sick you eliminate the contents of your stomach.. So if your eyes see movement but your body feels something that is in conflict you feel sick. Or if your body feels something but your eyes do not see motion. At least that is one theory.

The more your body is "in tune" the bigger the issue..one reason why F1 drivers seem to be more sensitive to simulation lag than others.

It is not only the software...frames per second also matter..the power of the GPU. FPS of 80 is 12.5 milli seconds. Slower than that and you begin to see problems. 120 mph is 2 feet in 12.5 milli seconds.

ya , you're right !