Design Advice

Ok if the movements seem a little fast and too responsive then wind down the Max Duty cycle and Max Acceleration , this will inturn slow the whole movements down, in Testing I start at 200 , 200 and move up until I'm satisfied with the speed and response, mine run at 550 , 600, but have a fine tuned pid and feel for a seat mover they should be snappy as possible.
Yes with SimTools you can slow it down somewhat by having larger values in the tunning centre , but this you will do when you first setup a base profile with your first game, wouldn't worry about that yet.

Set the motors duty cycle and acceleration using the configuration utility and step the movement by using the page up and page down keys, once stepping nicely , they will be ready for SimTools use and shouldn't require any adjustments.

Damage Jrk can be fixed , if you haven't torn the solder tracks away from the base then you can solder the wires directly there if not the opposite holes are interconnected too and can be used too, there is 2 x gnds and 2 x 5vs so this should be an issues and can be easily fixed.

@bsft and @eaorobbie - I combined your input while troubleshooting my issues. First, I double checked my pot attachments and mounts.

I focused on the Max Duty Cycle and Max Acceleration. I started at 250 and 300 respectively, but also noted eaorobbie's comment about stepping through the movements with the pageup and pagedown keys. When I step either direction, the movements were fine. I even raised the numbers back up close to the values in the setup thread (550/600).

My question is, do you guys determine whether a particular setup is acceptable by doing the step up and step down method or do you jump around at bigger increments? I am guessing the Jrk utility allows for very large extremes - more than what would be used in an actual game. Some of the issues I have been describing may have been caused by me asking/telling the motors to travel more than a typical sim application. Also, should the movement of 1 lever cause the other lever to change position? I have noticed one side being impacted by the other.

Is it typical to have different settings on the same sim for the different motor/Jrk combos? I just automatically changed both together.

That leads into my next concern. I was thinking the gear motors would/should hold position if/when I had someone sitting in the seat with the motors powered. Is that wrong? When I had my son sitting in the seat and I started stepping the motors so the seat leaned back, the motors/levers started to give. I have currently only cranked the bolts hard to clamp on the motor shaft because I was just trying to make sure everything is working, but do I need to drill through the shaft bolt even with little or no weight in the seat? I purchased the 25:1 gear motors. When the motors are powered on, should I be able to turn the levers? My assumption was no.

OK, on to SimTools. After I had good results with the Jrk Utility with the step up and step down movements, I decided to give SimTools a try. I walked through the quickstart guide and made it to the axis check. As soon as I turn on the control, the left motor quickly changes position (not out of range, just seems to adjust) and the right motor does not move at all. Then, when I try to use the sliders, neither motor responds at all. I the turn control off and jump back into the Jrk utility to use that control to adjust the lever position. I may need to adjust the Jrk settings, because any movement other than a few steps at a time is hyper speed fast. Def. a difference between large movements and smaller steps.

Any ideas why one motor jumps when I perform the axis testing - but then neither moves? Also , the quick start guide mentions that the smoothness depends on the refresh rate (suggest <10ms), but I could not see an area to check/change that setting?

Sorry about the long post. I was way excited when I had the motors stepping up and down, but now it seems like I have all kinds of problems.

Help ... please ...
Steve

Ok motors once powered should stay steady , as in if there is little backlash in the gearboxes then it will move a degree or two.
So in your case Im tempted to increase the P to aid in increasing the holding power , increase P in steps of 0.05 to 0.02 to find a P than suits your motors with the way that you have set them up.

Ok movement wise , the jrks will receive commands to change position every 10-20ms and really only hit peaks and big troughs if you have had an accident on the track, most motion is quite long smooth and or quite short and sharp.

I use a 3.2mm split pin in the hole provided in the shaft and yes eventually you will need to lock this up for safety reasons as the trashing back and forth once you have it all running in game will cause the holding nut to loosen and boy its not fun , its a what the hell moment, so once happy pin it.

Having slightly different settings on the Jrks is not uncommon, all it takes is for one motor to have slightly more windings internally and it will then require a slightly (by 0.01) PID to make it simular in movement or if one gearbox is looser or tighter , this will effect your motors duty cycle and acceleration, beauty is we can set them so that they are as equal as possible in their movements.

Ok need to set the jrks settings for SimTools.
Can you provide pics or setting you have used in the interface settings and the default axis in the Axis Settings.
Nearly there mate , your are close.

@eaorobbie - thank you again for your help. I have attached pics of my SimTools screens. Let me know if you want to see something else.

Ok a base Axis Assignment for 2DOF is -
DOF1 DOF2
Axis 1 Roll 50% Pitch 50%
Axis 2 INV Roll 50% Pitch 50%

This can be expanded further to include 5DOF movements, but we simulate the three forces not reproduce as we do with Roll and Pitch.
So a 5DOF includes Roll,Pitch,Surge,Sway,Heave on Axis 1 with 20% in each actual movement then on Axis 2 is the same except you roll and sway will be inverted.

Save that and that will be the first picture correct.
Now Interface settings are nearly correct , think the version you are using the 12 bit preset had an error in it, anyway just change the Interface Output to <221><Axis1> on Interface 1 and <221><Axis2> to Interface 2. Also if you have set the PID period in the Jrks to 20 then all the rates need to be the same too.
Confirm in the Windows device manager that the comports you have selected are the Command Ports of the Jrks and Save

Now all should be good and testing via the Output Testing should be correct.
You should be ready to race.

@eaorobbie

Thank you for your help! It moves! I had to work through some other issues, but I am starting to figure out what some of the settings do so I do not have to look like a complete noob and ask about everything.

I found some info I had printed about setting the PID (from the Pololu website I think) and which numbers help with different issues. The page suggested increasing P as much as possible - up to the point of instability, then back it down. That was also your suggestion. The info also confirmed @bsft 's suggestion about increasing D to help with the overshooting problem.

So I just sat on the ground next to the my sim and played the Life for Speed game per the Quickstart guide. I def. followed the safety suggestions by reducing Axis use to 50% and the motor use to 20%. But, the seat was definitely responding while I played the game! Yeah!

A few more questions -

1. After I finished the "safety" run, I figured it was time to start working out the pedal/wheel placement. I kept the seat powered and was sitting in the seat trying to figure out the placement when the seat freaked out. It did not last very long and seemed to go back to position, but it was jumping/shaking for a time. So, what would cause the motor to do that while no game or input was being provided?

2. As noted above, I have the axis use down to 50% and the motor use at 20%. What would be the recommended method of dialing this baby in? Do I leave the motors at 20% and increase axis %? Opposite approach? Or, increase both? If it protects components, I will live with slower and boring while/until the unit proves itself. Technically, I still haven't actually been sitting in the seat while it was responding to the game. That happens tomorrow!

Thanks again for your help - both of you.

Steve

Hopefully my clip loaded/linked properly.

@eaorobbie and @bsft - I need some serious help. I hope it is a software issue, not a design issue.

The video shown is with the axis to use at 75% and the Main Level % at 60. The issue with the motor(s) was also noticed when the values were 50% and 20%, but the motor(s) would not shut completely down at the lower levels. They would drop down and start shaking, but I would lean forward to take some weight off the seat and they would kick back in.

Obviously, in the video, the motor just shuts down immediately.

The first portion of the video shows me trying to "work" the motors by making hard, sharp turns - with an empty seat. The seat doesn't respond as much as I would have thought, but that may be because I have low %'s. I do end up getting some pretty good seat movement though and the motors never shut down.

But, with my son, who only weighs 80 lbs, the motor seems to load up and shut down. Is it possible that my power supply can not handle the loaded motor current? When the motor shuts down in the video, I simply turn the power supply off then back on and it comes back on.

Do you see a design issue that would be causing the motors to be loaded in an unacceptable way? The issue was first noticed on the RH motor, but now happens on both (LH motor in video).

Help ... Please.

Steve

Have a look in the error tab of the jrk utility program and see if any errors are coming up.
With power, try finding a car battery and run one power supply on it in parallel .
How long are those levers on the motors?

@bsft - the levers are around 5 inches long. I know they are on the long side, but I was hoping to get more movement if/when I ever get a roller coaster sim up and working. Could the longer length be overloading my motors?

I will take a look at the errors as well. I was thinking about removing the rods and turning the %'s up to get as much travel as possible in order to confirm one way or another if it a weighted seat issue.

Thanks for your suggestions.
Steve

Ok, make sure the seat is balanced for you, the heavier person.
The lever, try drilling holes in in at 2.5in CTC and test.
And as said, with the car battery, try that instead of the two power supplies to see if that helps.
And yes, check the errors in utility.
Simulation is about a mind trick combined with visual and motion. If the profile is right, and it does take working on, you find you get proper immersion without massive throw needed.
I just read again the axis and main level.
Set main level in game manager at 100% and leave it.
Set the axis (1 and 2) in game engine at 20% and then test each force for each DOF and adjust with tuning centre. Thats what Rob taught me.
I found that if I got a good number in the tuning centre, but it was a little soft or a little harsh, then I changed the percentage on the axis's up or down a few percent.
So I might have sway at 20%, surge 25%, heave 12% (depending on number I like in tuning centre).

@bsft - I know this is off topic considering I am having issues, but your reply reminded me of a question.

I currently have axis 1 and axis 2 at 50% Pitch and 50% Roll (with 1 roll inverted) aon the axis assignment screen. Does a typical 2dof sim only use pitch and roll? I am using the Live for Speed trial version and the profile editor shows the following forces available: roll, pitch, yaw, heave, surge, sway and extra1.

So, my question is - do you have more than just pitch and roll on your sims with just 2 motors? Are the other "force available" options for sim with more motors?

If I am driving off the track - rough surface, but driving straight - should the seat be reflecting the bumpy road? What about a fast acceleration/braking?

Steve

Yes levers are too long , drill a couple of holes - 65mm and 85mm from the centre. This is heaps of movement for a seat mover. There is another little trick I do for running the rollercoaster , etc.
Now on 65mm C/C lever I set 80mm of motion. IE 40mm above and below centre. That will be the Min and Max I set in the Jrks as per this picture.

This will provide nice solid and sharp feel to the motion.
Plus you have a fairly heavy seat on board.
Now later when you want to use the roller coaster you have a different Jrk setting profile saved in the Jrk Utility that has 120mm of throw for the coaster as its moves are slower and need more angle to make the ride more fun. And you can easily upload and change them when needed.
Once happy with the Jrk settings , I do recommend saving them to file.

Now with the shorter movement for racing you should be setting the GameManager to 100%

And with LFS , I set 5DOForces for both Axis.
For example.

Axis 1 Roll 20% Pitch 20% Surge 20% Heave 20% Sway 20%
Axis 2 IRoll 20% Pitch 20% Surge 20% Heave 20% ISway 20%

Noting each Axis totals 100% of the available axis range.
And the "I" before a force equals Inverted.

Now from there I tune my Min Max Setting in the Game Engine - Tuning Centre with a base car for that game. I like to zero out all the % to test each DOF by itself , makes it easier to figure out what is going on. I set a nice roll so to feel the smooth changes in the track , dial in a pitch to give me the feedback that Im climbing or dropping, then work on a surge and normally don't set this with an equal Min Max , because I like to have more accel (chair rocking back ) then I like to have braking, once happy I dial a heave to so that I can feel the ground and the skips on uneven surfaces, and gutters, then I need some sway to give me that little extra roll to let me know I have loaded the outside tyres up and shes about to slide.

These all come from preference I can not tell you the exact setting that you will need , you need to feel, ah yes that's right, once happy with each , reset all the % back 20 and go wow this is great or maybe turn this up or down, follow the above process and you should get a nice result.

We can emulate the Roll and Pitch in a 2DOF sim but need to remember we can only simulate and fool the brain with the other forces. As in with Surge I set it so the Accel is a short sharp jolt back under heavy acell as in the rear of the car has dropped and you have taken off. And when you hit the brakes the nose drops as in seat rock forwards. Heave is short sharp , very quick jolts like to represent the vibrations coming back from the road and the impact from a jump ,ect.
Sway is represent with a little extra roll to the direction the car is swaying too , not a massive increase.
Tuning all the Min Max's to output this way you will find the seat will seem to come alive.

@bsft and @eaorobbie - Thank you both very much! I had my teenage daughter help me tonight and she was even grunting and laughing when the seat threw her around a bit!

I am now at 65mm from CTC on the levers. I am not so sure my extension cord wasn't part of the cause of my motor problem. I used the same one for my drill to fix the levers and it started to die under load as well. I am very glad I noticed that!

Tuning Centre Questions/Comments:

I have the roll working very well.
The heave (road bumps - right?) working very well.
I am not getting hardly any pitch - but is that because Live for Speed obviously doesn't have any hills, so it would just be straight track racing?
Shifting - I need work on this. Either the seat barely moved when shifting OR it nearly knocked my daughters brains out. This is Surge? I have tried the unbalanced suggestion mentioned above, but I am wondering if I am even in the right ballpark.

@bsft - how do you determine the change in axis %? as opposed to just using the tuning centre? I am consider increasing the Pitch % and taking some away from heave.

No matter what, it is working WAY better now. I will try to get a new video showing the screen and seat. I would welcome advice based on the movements you see.

Steve

follow Robs instructions

Surge can give gear change effect

Well done Steve sounds like good news.

Yes Surge is where the gear shift effect is felt and the Acceleration and Braking too.
What I like to do is to adjust my surge by itself until I get the kick that I want from the gear changes , some games this can be quiet violent too, for that I knock the 20% down a little 12-15%.
But once I have a good Accel and gear effect, I find that when I stamp on the brakes Im getting pushed too much into the steering wheel, so on the Braking effect I increase that one so that the braking feels a lot softer of an action. Like Surge 20% Max 18 Min -10 is what I run on Grid.

Now with pitch you can tune the Min and Max down (closer to 0) so the effect is what you want, specially for LFS.

I think this thread will be of great use soon.... good job @CoachKalk you are asking many questions for the rest of us!

@Slider - I am sure the "experts" are saying come on already. But, I really did spend a lot of time reading over threads before I started but when I actually started doing the stuff, I was a bit lost. I have been trying hard not to keep asking basic questions, but I was struggling.

BUT, I am now very happy with the settings. I changed the %'s some and used the tuning centre to change a few numbers. I am so happy that I am going to move forward with my traction loss plan. I know it would seem odd for me to post without asking a question - and I do not want to break my streak ... so ...

1. Any opinion on best method for mounting/setting up traction loss system? I already have my seat mover platform mounted on a front pivot so I just need to decide on the best method for motor/lever/chain? attachments in the back.

2. I made another video tonight to show my current settings, but my driving was too embarrassing to post. At this time, I am blaming it on my stupid pedals. I am using a wheel/pedals from my brother that is/was for a playstation. I ordered the usb adapter and the wheel works fine. My issue is that both pedals register as the same axis in the LFS control setup. So, I have been forced to select the combined accel./brake option during setup which means I have to use 1 pedal for both accelerating and braking. The pedal pressed 1/2 way down is the neutral position. I know it is a long shot, but as anyone else ran into a similar issue? Or could the pedals just be junk? Now once I resolve the pedal issue, I may have to find a new excuse for my poor driving - other than I just SUCK!

Thanks @eaorobbie and @bsft for all of your help.

Steve

doesnt matter how bad you drive, you built a motion sim. Thats a major achievement in itself.