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New member with a new Project

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Projects' started by GeorgeW, Apr 19, 2014.

  1. GeorgeW

    GeorgeW New Member

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    Hi everyone,

    New member here, I've been interested in simulators for years, but never had the right combination of space, time, budget, opportunity and approval of the Mrs. to pursue it until now. I consider myself to be pretty 'handy' but am not an engineer so hope I can get some tips from you pros as I get a prototype built.

    I plan to build a biking simulator - not a motorcycle, but a mountain biking/road biking simulator. I think this project is a bit unique and challenging because it doesn't involve a seated chair/cockpit experience, but more variables due to the combination of sitting, standing on the bike, varied forces in play when peddling, etc.

    Here are my initial design thoughts - I think this lends itself as being based on a platform design to begin with with 2 synchronized motors in the front and 2 synchronized motors in the rear. For the truest biking experience the platform needs to be able to have about 18 inches of vertical distance between the front of the platform and the back of the platform to adequately simulate both climbing a hill and riding down a mountain. The platform will have the bike attached to it in the front via some type of fixed mount that bolts in through the front shock (where the wheel attaches to) and in the rear to a traditional bike trainer (permanently attached to the platform).

    From other platform designs I think people use car/truck CV joints, I assume I'd use the same thing as a CV joint is undoubtedly strong enough to handle this workload.

    I've ordered the following for this initial prototype, hoping I didn't make a mistake with any of these:

    GEARMOTORs 1/4 HP 180 WATT 12 VOLT 170-180RPM REVERSIBLE
    http://www.ebay.ca/itm/370992920829?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
    • 12 VOLT DC
    • HOLLOW OUTPUT SHAFT WITH 12 MM ID HOLE SO IT CAN BE USED FOR AN AXLE THROUGH
    • PERMANENT MAGNET
    • LONG SERVICE LIFE
    • OUTPUT IS 170-180 RPM
    • 1/4 HP APROX (180 WATTS)
    • RATIO 21.6:1
    • WEIGHS 5.5 LBS
    • torque is 25-35 NM
    • OVERALL DIMENSIONS 6.8"X5.4"X6.1" APROX
    POTENTIOMETERs:
    Arduino:
    • Arduino UNO USB Board R3
    H-Bridges
    • 2 x Monster Moto Shield for Arduino
    I don't have a good design software to build a schematic from, but from other designs it looks like I should have each set of motors linked to a separate H-Bridge and Ardunio board. I also see spring platform designs and either a fixed metal arm off the motor or what looks like 'shocks'? I'm a bit worried about this part of the design as I think there'll be a lot of stress on the arms as they'll need to support the weight of the platform, a 25-35 lb bike and a 200 lb person.

    Anyway, those are my initial thoughts, I know I am a long way from getting this built, but thought I'd share the idea and hopefully this build process with you from start to finish.
  2. bsft

    bsft

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    got some sketches of a design of a frame?
  3. GeorgeW

    GeorgeW New Member

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    I do, but they are pretty ugly, I'll take some pictures to give you all a better idea what I'm thinking and post them on this thread.
  4. bsft

    bsft

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    sketches bad or good, doesnt matter. Its a bit hard to advise unless we see some ideas.
  5. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    AC motor, Motion platform
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  6. GeorgeW

    GeorgeW New Member

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    image.jpg Thanks for the info on the pots, I ordered them blind, definitely going to be a lot to learn! Can you suggest a model pot you'd recommend?

    Here's a very rough sketch, I hope it gives you all a bit of an idea what I am thinking. I will try to explain as it may be difficult to understand my notes.

    So on the sketch is a bike, the back of the bike sits on a platform bases about 5 inches off the floor. That base has a cycleops bike trainer attached to it. (The triangle are the steel supports). After rethinking this, I do not think I need either the cvjoint, full platform or motors on the rear. Instead I think I will have another support platform in the front where the two motors sit on - either side. There will probably be some flat steel rectangular rods that fix the front platform to the rear base.

    There is no wheel on the front, instead it connects directly to the motor arms on either side with a traditional style wheel lock (probably longer than normal to fit through the front shock and motor arms. The bike sits in regular riding position 9 inches off the ground, then the motor arm can rotate either up 9 inches or down 9 inches. The whole bike frame will pivot off the center of the back wheel, where the trainer is attached.

    Some things I am worried about would be stress on the motor arms with the weight sitting on it like this. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks!
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  7. GeorgeW

    GeorgeW New Member

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    Here is an idea what the bike would like in downhill height, neutral height and top/climb position. image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
    Obviously I'm just toying around with the design at this stage.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  8. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    Interesting project! But pardon me, aren’t we putting the buggy before the horse here? There aren’t any bicycle simulator plugins available! At least not at the moment! Do you have a plan for this or is you’re philosophy, “If I build it, they will come”? :D
  9. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    AC motor, Motion platform
    Type of pot would be dependent of how you are going to implement your feedback (I'm using two Hall effect 180 degree, a 5 turn and 3 turn wirewound pots, as I have four motors with two driving the seat and one for a surge table and another for a traction loss table). It all comes down to design, application and cost. Good point from BlazinH about the software and you will need to build systems to interface the pedal movement (accelerator) , handlebars (steering) etc back to the game. Certainly looks like you have a few challenges ahead, but all the best.
  10. bsft

    bsft

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    thanks for putting up the photos.
    To get that sort of travel up and down you will need an actuator or 2, and I suspect you will have to build one. The BFF design does about 400mm total travel and uses a motor like you described, but I am not sure how well they would do on pure lift. If the frame was on a centre pivot to help hold the weight , they might do it.
    But the motors on their own will not.
    Also, simulation is a mind trick more than actual throw, although some will disagree. Its about what you see on screen in relation to the movement. For flight, yes a good amount on throw, for car race, a short amount.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2014
  11. GeorgeW

    GeorgeW New Member

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    Yep, I know this isn't something being done ....yet...! I wanted a workable hardware prototype built first, then hopefully get a fixed 'track' prepared to test the idea out (a repeatable track with all the movement sequences recorded). No steering at this stage, though I have some ideas about that as well (too early to really go into detail just yet). Speed should be something easier to manage based on wheel rotation, but again, for the initial demo I'm just looking for a fixed speed 'on the rails experience'. I've got some software development experience (mostly on the testing side), I know enough to get started, but once I get in over my head I have a couple coding friends who I hope I can get to help me out.
  12. GeorgeW

    GeorgeW New Member

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    Good information here, I'm so brand new to this idea that I'm still learning the terminology and had to search for what an actuator was. So...I'm certainly up for building an actuator if I can't buy one or two that meet the project needs (and aren't silly expensive)! Is there a tutorial on building an actuator that you can point me to or a suggested type of actuator I could buy that would be suitable? (There's just so much info on this site its tough to figure out what to follow). Thanks again for your thoughts and advice.

    "Edit" just spotted a thread on actuator types, watching this video:
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  13. RufusDufus

    RufusDufus Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like the new "Video Ride Simulator" (currently in beta) would be perfect for this? Have a chat to @yobuddy and @eaorobbie to get more details and see if it is what you need.
  14. value1

    value1 Nerd SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, JRK, Joyrider
    LOL, I took some footage and measured the accelerations/gyro data just yesterday when riding downhill my bike. I thought that could be for the "Video Ride Simulator". Now the weather was too bad to allow good footage – there will be a next time :)
  15. bsft

    bsft

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    • Like Like x 1
  16. GeorgeW

    GeorgeW New Member

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    Thank you for the links and info, I have spent the past four or five days pondering various designs. Ultimately everything boils comes down to challenges associated with the amount of vertical travel I want (450mm), stroke speed (at least 80mm/s) and force under load - (550+newtons per motor/actuator in a pair). Unfortunately after spending hours pouring through actuator possibilities on the internet and reaching out to a few suppliers I don' think there are many out there that meet those criteria, let alone in a cost-effective manner.

    Building my own May be the only option, but I'd really like to find something already built if possible.

    Here is one possibility that I saw, only 12 inches of travel but the speed and force is right there. If the actuator were placed closer to the center of a platform (rather than the end) it could still provide the same overall 18 inch of desired travel.

    http://www.edriveactuators.com/catalogs/etweb.pdf

    I have not gotten a quote yet, but it is likely prohibitively expensive. I now realize why simulator companies charge 25-45k for simulators, if they actually use commercial actuators much of that cost is hardware. More to post but have to get back to work.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. eaorobbie

    eaorobbie Well-Known Member SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, JRK, SimforceGT, 6DOF
    This is why we exist mate, Commercial guys hate us DIY guys.

    With your idea of design I would look into a gimbal system as your weight above the cg will increase the torque needed to move such a system. Basically thinking a bike in side a joy rider frame. Basically you will be able to balance the system so that sitting in centre and keeping dead still it should balance resulting in no weight on the motors and then all the motors have to do it move and hold it off centre and the design will help the sim self right itself back to centre.

    Pros - not as strong motors (actuators needed)
    - self balancing, and built right can be made adjustable for different size riders.

    Cons - a bit of a big in size build
    - may be a little awkward to get into. Value1 shows a better design for a joyrider style.
    Just an idea.
  18. RufusDufus

    RufusDufus Well-Known Member

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    @GeorgeW, I was curious about your ideas and did some googling. You probably already know this but I was surprised to find there are a number of virtual cycling products on the market. They don't look like they do motion simulation but seem to cover the simulator side of things. It may be worth investigating a bit as they may have some sort of interface that outputs data like the car/flight sims. If they do a plugin may be possible for simtools.

    Some that I found are:
    http://www.sportsentertainmentspecialists.com/vrcycling.html
    http://www.ergvideo.com/default.aspx#/Home
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/tec...oo-kickr-trainer/story-e6frgazf-1226695769262
    http://www.spivi.com/spivi/special/index.html
    • Informative Informative x 1